Sexual harrassment: primal or legal justice (Women only)

This is an interesting poll! I am a female psychology student. In my view in the teenage years it is really unfair to take a boy to court if he groped. This does not mean he should get away with it. Whether the use of the dominance pecking order amongst boys is the right thing is also a question, but maybe it is! Boys are indeed boys but the sooner they grow up, the better. They are flooded with sex hormones, but they need to control it. Here is my story. Brad, a new, attractive boy enrolled at my school. We were both 15. I liked him and smiled occasionally at him in the passing, but I did not flirt. In my country we wear school uniforms, so I wasn't dressed like a tart. So I was utterly amazed when he stalked me from behind and grabbed both my boobs in a very forward way. He even “milked” it for a few seconds and I had to break loose. I turned around and gave him the mother of all slaps. I told him, “turn the other cheek, show me you are a good Christian”. He didn't, he was still nursing the slapped cheek. I have some karate training. I knew he would duck if I slap him on the other cheek, so I pretended, but then aimed a mock kick at his balls. Karatekas are not allowed to administer a full kick unless in real danger. He doubled over and then moved to a save distance. Then followed not much of a Christian-like rant from me- I shouted expletives at him, called him a ##$%%^& coward and a @#$%^ whatever. “You are brave enough to harass me but now you run away”. It dawned upon me, that since he was new, he may have been dared by the other boys as a form of initiation. It was not the case however. He said he simply could not control himself, that he liked me, and came up with the “boys are boys” excuse. I said, well, I don't date boys, I want MEN. I made it clear it was in a figurative way- we were adolescents. Even at that age, if one is serious about dating, then mature behaviour is required.

The bloke avoided me in the next few days and looked really pitiable. I checked him out however and later saw he was a performer, academically and on the sports field. I had no boyfriend - I received attention but I was extremely picky. So I went to him, and said if he can show he can treat a woman well, we can put the incident past us and date. His woman skills were somewhat deficient but he learned quickly. We have been steady since. We are now 23 and at the same university. Maybe he has a boob obession, because now that he may touch it and the bare skin too, he lets no opportunity pass. I taught him that human girls are not cows and milking is a no-no – the right way is to start from the outside and circle towards the nipples, or just as the girl prefers. I told him also there will be trouble if he does it in public again. There was no-one nearby that day, but it was in the open in the school garden. Boob fondling is for indoors.

The matter of the facesitting habit amongst boys is also extremely interesting. I always thought it was the ultimate form of immaturity. There was a lot of jostling and horsing in my school. Usually quite friendly. Sometimes they took turns to sit on each other. It was not always face- to- genital, but very often the case. Another girl pointed out they sometimes have noticable erections – usually the top ones, but the one at the bottom may also have one, if the turnover happens in quick succession. “Are the bloodywill gay” I asked. Yet no-one was – the rough-edged boys were in fact the “manlier” ones, while one of the mature boys I liked, was known to be gay. Three more serious incidents brought it forward prominently. One was a case of bullying – a grade 12 boy sat on a small boy of probably not even 50kg. I arrived late on the scene when other boys pulled the bully off his victim. The other 2 cases were dispute fighting amongst boys of equal size – all were jerks so nobody cared to brake it up. There were decisive victories and the winners sat a while to celebrate the victory and humiliate the loser. The winners had substantial erections – penetration-ready if they were with a girl. The bully also had one, there was still enough time to observe. But there was no trace of any with the losers. It may have in fact shrunk. Brad told me he was so annoyed once. He undressed when under severe stress and noticed his $%!@ and scrotum were highly contracted. I gave him a hard time even though I promised not to brought up the groping incident. (OK, I am also not perfect!) Yeah, I said – you must have had a nice hard-on when you grabbed me, that went to tatters when I mock-kicked you! "Well, yes" he said, "I did not notice but it must have been very well the case". Humiliation let testosterone levels drop sharply. Even if there is no physical danger to the genitals, they shrink instinctively to protect the male in his state of stress. Victory for some reason has the opposite effect and make the male horny in non-sexual situations. I also in the line of my studies learned that dominant baboon males sometimes shove their $%!@ into the faces of weaker males, usually standing upright. Human males won’t just take that – hence they have to be overpowered first. This pseudo-sexual bahavior can be playfully and friendly, or turn serious. Anyway, we are not baboons. We have the ability to discuss conflicts. We should accept that this behaviour may be “natural” amongst pubertal boys, but it should be learned off soonest. The same goes for any form of sexual harassment to girls.

[Update: where $%!@ appears I mean the male organ. I in fact used the technical term but either someone edited it or the system censors words. I am new here and haven't even compiled a poll but I will probably - it is a great site!]

psycien, you seem to be interested in the sexual behavior of the human male and as a psychology major you have resources the average doesn't. Some boys and men get erections when they are defeated by females or even if they think about. It doesn't have to be phyiscal defeat. It can be psychological defeat. What percentage of guys become aroused in this way? 5%? 25%? 50%? 75%? 95%? And why? Even the guys to whom it happens don't understand why. As a psychology major, can you shed some light on this matter? Please take a look at the comments in this poll on likelike.com: http://www.likelike.com/poll/2258. I'm curious.

CuriousXYZ, sorry for my late reply. I have been very busy and I am not postgraduate yet- so I need some time to learn research techniques. A quick look at a journal database yielded nothing. I know this happens and the phenomenon of masochism is well known. Personally I hate to lose to anyone, even in karate on points - much less "primal" as the polster calls it. I am just too assertive if not domineering. So I at the moment I can only offer some observations talking from the bedroom and some remarks from lovey Brad, a medical student. He knows something about hormones but also still need to learn a lot about endrocrinology. I sometimes after bathing go and facesit Brad - after all I then have the confidence with a clean v*g*a. He likes it very much, in fact he oftens when he knows I am bathing, he goes and lie starkers in anticipation. He is erect in a jiffy. When the sex starts in the normal lovey-dovey way it takes longer. It is a form of power play -emphasis on play - I want to boss around over him. Sometimes he submits but sometimes he turns me over and makes me submit. He is 1.92 m (over 6 ft) and muscular. A rugby lock. Now, you know I know karate and he is a big guy, so we can fight and see who wins, but what for. We just like it to dominate each other in a playful way and we love each other. The domination play is only a minute or so, then we kiss and caress or it can just be a quick bout if he is dressed and the time not right. Outside the bedroom we discuss problems in a mature way and usually reach concensus, or take turns to let the other party's wishes be carried out. Brad said that in the case of a female facesitting a guy, apart from that men are visually oriented (females emotionally), a vg**a secretes pheromones that will make the man horny - probably that is why it happens so fast.

Further Brad says there are a lot of endocrine disrupters in the environment. Women's contraceptives are mostly estrogen based, there is something in plastics and all the junk food also contributes - the fatter anyone is the more estrogen he or she has (anorexic women become infertile when the have no estrogen). So there are a lot of factors that makes males less male and the traditional subservient woman, reactively more assertive. We are in war with men!

Yet this may be an American thing - being an industrial country and notorious for junk food. This site seems to be US-based. I am from South Africa. I do not know if our men are like that. Two ethnic groups, (the Afrikaner, as I am) and the Zulu are known for an almost over emphisation on masculinity. Yet our cities are developed (positive), but polluted (negative) too - we are part 1st world and part 3rd world. Urban diets are bad everywhere. Most Afrikaner men are urbanised and I anyway do not think it is only the Afr and Zulu men that stays manly. You may also argue that you or the men you refer to, are lean and fit. Let us know.

In the end I call for equality between genders, races etc.

I am alarmed that the poll as of date is as follows: 8 votes (50%) say it is more or less fine, just walk away. Internet polls cannot be scientifically designed- populations selected, with control groups. These votes can just as well be from men that want to influence any reader; to make it acceptable. Fortunately the second highest score is for slapping. This may be a natural female strategy to bring the man's testosterone levels down to acceptable levels. Fortunately there is only one vote each for the extremes of legal action and beating the offending guy heavily.

As soon as I know more, I will post. I hope more people will join in the discussion.

[I give up (and you know I hate it :-). Vga is for the female receptive organ which I myself interspersed with asterisks to prevent it from being censored. Now only the letters I typed display. I also do not know why the centre part of my message is in bold when I logs off. Everything is fine when I am logged in.]

Psycjen,

Thank you for your contribution. I am afraid that you will be disappointed to learn there is a whole subculture around the so-called schoolboy pin, which you call face-sitting. As you observed, it is not just genital on face, but the sitter can be on the chest of the "seat" or on the belly or anywhere else but it is usually on these 3 body parts. It can be as tame as the sitter sitting totally astride and hovering above the seat, with no inconvenience to the seat at all. In their own terminology they actually call themselves sitters and seats. The next grade is where the sitter put some pressure on the body of the seat causing discomfort and taking control of him if he resists. Crueller versions are sitting with full weight on the seat's chest, restricting his breath, and doubling the seat's legs over his own body, then sitting down on the closed jack-knifed body. This can cause some pain in the spine apart from severe discomfort and breath restriction. It is a recognised submission hold in wrestling called a sitout pin, but the winner must immediately gets off a loser when the latter indicates defeat.

People of claiming to be over 50 years of age are participating and looking for consensual partners on the internet boards. I am not going to provide links as I do not condone this behavior either. I am just interested in the matter of domination, but the more serious type, not love play. By serious I actually also do not mean the really criminal stuff. There is a state inbetween - mild domination and harassment. I want to know where lines are drawn. There are a continuum of states. Boob touching may be a cross-over line between acceptable and not. Rape is the extreme that cannot be tolerated. Schoolground fighting is a way of solving disputes easily, but beating a loser into pulp is not. No form of violence will work later in life indeed.

Many questions arise. Is this consensual schoolboy pinning homo-sexuality or not? Two guys on one board claim to be "as straight as a calibrated ruler". It is at least more acceptable to me as full-blown sado-masochism with bloodied bodies that can still be consensual, but such people should be protected against themselves I say. Two last interesting observations are that there are more seats (submissives) looking for sitters (dominators) than the other way round, and that women can get aroused observing an interaction. After all, who is screaming the most at boxing and wrestling matches? There is also an indication on other polls here that women can enjoy sadism very much, if only in fantasies. Unless aggressive males askew the picture by voting where they should not.

Curious, I do not have an answer to your question either. Like Psycjen and her BF pointed out, domination play in sex is quite normal. If I am however defeated in any way by a female whether physical or psychological, then I am unhappy. OK, I never had been defeated in a fight by a woman, but it happens a lot in my work that I need to give in on decisions or whatever. I had many bosses of both genders in my life and I actually prefer the male bosses. Maybe I am a chauvinist, but not an extreme one.

My next poll will be on the non-consensual schoolboy pin. I saw it many times and what is remarkable is that some of the offenders were not a bully type, but quite normal. The oldest one of these was 31 years old, so it is not a puberty thing either. In all cases the victims were younger. So it was 31y on 17y, 20 on 17 and 23 on 15. The 17 year guy was the same person in 2 interactions. In the pubertal cases I also saw one boy underneath different bigger boys. The 2 adult cases on the 17year old were of the total no pain, sitting widely astride fashion and short-lived, just a ritual. The 23 on 15 case was crueller. He rolled the victim around for a while into submission, then sitting full weight and for more than a minute. The pubertal boy with more than one interaction was unfortunately squashed sit-out style at length. Some of his dominators were bullies for sure, but one remarkably not (though he did not sit that long). None of the adult cases were by regular bullies – I knew them well. The other pubertal cases were also usually mild, sometimes with exerting some discomfort but also short-lived. To conclude, I also want to know if some boys “attract” pins for some reason, as there were for sure nothing in it for them. They were not masochists or submissive gays – in fact not gay at all.

BTW, I am no student or researcher. I have majored in sociology many years ago and browse the internet on matters of human behaviour. I try to keep my polls as professional as possible but I have no training and one can indeed not rely much on internet polls, but they can provide a broad indication.