Are you going to heaven or hell?

In the numbers quote one says to hang them, as in kill them, the other says to expose the truth. My point is that it has been re translated and edited so many times that parts get garbled.

Also, Joseph couldn't be Jesus' father because of a virgin birth.

Also, prophecy is impossible unless the majority of Jews are in Israel. Unless I am mistaken there are multiple times the genealogy of Jesus is mentioned and they are of different lengths.

What about the Gospel of Mary?

You want to know why he tightened the requirements? Because most people get into heaven. Everyone starts life with a place in heaven, even if not Jewish. Depending on what you do in your life you give up or get more of a share. There are certain mitzvoth which get you in automatically and certain sins which banish you automatically. The point is: everyone starts life being able to get in and believing in god is not a requirement. According to the Torah.

And only prophets can change the Torah. Not the Messiah, prophets. If god can do anything he wants can't he just un curse himself?

Dr. Smart,

"In the numbers quote one says to hang them, as in kill them, the other says to expose the truth. My point is that it has been re translated and edited so many times that parts get garbled." You will see that, in different bible translations, that the doctrines and truths stay the same. It is crucial to understand this. Risking your eternal life because you get hung up on, or trip over, how scripture "seems" to change from one version to another isn't good. Granted, some versions are not scripture, such as The Message, but stick with the big ones (KJV, NIV, etc.) and you'll be OK.

As for this scripture from numbers, this is where bible study, being born again, and knowing God pays off. First of all, the point is the Lord's anger at their idolatry and sexual immorality. To be exposed before Him and for His anger to be subsided means death. That comes from bible study. The one version not mentioning they were to be killed doesn't mean they weren't! Besides, look at the next verse. Even in the version where their death isn't stated, I'll bet verse five makes it clear. So both translations give the same message, and in no way changed any doctrine, so no problem.

As for Joseph not being Jesus' father, you are correct in the sexually begotten sense. Joseph was the father of Jesus in a legal sense. So no problem there.

May I ask where you heard prophecy is impossible unless the majority of Jews are in Israel? Is this information from men, or is it from scripture? Unless it's in the bible, don't take it as divine truth.

I'm glad you brought up the issue of the genealogies listed for Jesus, because there is a good reason for the differences. His genealogy in Matthew goes back and includes David, showing His right to kingship as a decendant of David, and the fullfillment of the covenant made with Abraham (Galations 3:29). In Luke, His genealogy goes back to Adam to show His humanity, that He came in flesh and blood, decended from Adam and Eve. He was also fully God at the same time, but I hope that helps explain the differing genealogies.

As for the Gospel of Mary, that falls right in there with the Gospel of Thomas and the new hot issue of the Gospel of Judas. All trash. I have yet to see one, or hear of one, speaking truth. Like I said before, God is all powerful and if He wanted a gospel to be included in the bible, He would have made sure it got there.

And if you do believe that all people are born good, ready for heaven, you have not read the bible. I could cite countless scriptures proving man is born in sin, lives in sin, and dies in sin, headed straight to hell. The only exception is young children who don't know better. To see how evil men are, even the Torah says that God was grieved He made man, and flooded the whole world, killing everyone save eight. Jeremiah had this to say about people: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (17:9) And the Apostle Paul pointed out that sin and death passed to all men from one man, Adam. (Rom. 5:12)

The reason we die is because we sin. (Ezekial 18:20). Since everyone dies, that means all sin. Sinners don't go to heaven. Jesus said to repent, or perish. Repenting and trusting in Him and His blood to pay for your sins is the only way to see heaven.

You said only prophets can change the Torah. Since the Torah is the word of God, actually nobody can change it. The Messiah didn't change it. Jesus is the word made flesh, He wouldn't change His own word! In fact, He held up the Law by saying that not one jot or tittle (Hebrew scripture) will pass away until heaven and earth pass away.

As for God uncursing Himself, He did that by rising from the dead after being crucified. He was a curse on the cross, but was resurrected in glory. I would say that means He "uncursed" Himself.

Think of it this way. If you would do two things, repent and trust in Jesus, you lose nothing! So why not? It's a free gift given by the Savior to save you from hell. You risk nothing, and gain everything. Please consider this. There is no good reason not to.

Jewish Belief in Messiah

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims 1) The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, whose translation is “Anointed”. It usually refers to a person initiated into G-d’s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head. Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).

2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible. Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rd’s Messiah [Saul]...” I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.

3) The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.

4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.

5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.

6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.

8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective.

10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:

a] Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.

b] When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

c] The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.

11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

There are two problems with this claim:

a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;

b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).

To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.

b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-jewishresponse.html

Messiah : The Criteria

Judge for yourself: Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

There are still millions, if not billions of people who practice Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism and many other forms of pagan and polythesitic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

Certainly NOT Jesus.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general_messiah-criteria02.html

Also, about the gospels being false: Says who? You? God gave us free will, we can make whatever cannon we want.

Also, nothing can be contrary to Moses. I was wrong about the Jew thing but a prophet must be pure. According to you all the prophets are hiding somehwere because they are immortal. Of course, the bible is contrary to Moses.

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Dr. Smart,

Just a note to let you know I'll be gone for awhile. I'm leaving on a trip, and will be teaching a class after that, but will try to squeeze in a response inbetween. So check back like in a week and a half to two weeks and I should hopefully have something for you!

Steve in your response to Cragslad you gave evidence to support the Bible, but have you ever read and studied the Quran or the Upanishads as thoroughly as you have the Bible. So, again there is no certainty that Christianity is true in its beliefs while other religions are not. I am not an expert because I have not read the Bible, Quran or the Upanishads, but there could be just as much proof in the Quran and the Upanishads that there is in the Bible.